I dont like this full realistic fly controls it makes the game very slow and strange to play
i like the controls in the last update you just need to add more planes ,missions , maps , radar , cockpit and harder bot to fight againts 
keep the hard work and dont change the flight model please :) 

I have mixed feelings about the new flight model, it's fun to try to fly with more realistic but difficult controls, but at the same time I can't do the kind of things that I did in 0.4.1

(Something I want to mention to begin with, I'm pretty new to flight games and flight mechanics, I've played a bit of War Thunder and that's basically it. I also don't have a joystick)

I feel like there can be a good game if you go either way, and that both flight models have potential. 

With the older, more arcade flight model because the mouse controls are so easy and intuitive, and the planes react so well, you could add some really crazy challenges that would still be doable even to new players, because you can focus on the challenge right away and you don't have to fight the controls. You can never have played any flight game before, launch the game, and immediately start doing maneuvers, and with only a little bit of practice you can have cinematic battles and feel like a legend. This is what really keeps me playing the 0.4.1 version, the cinematic battles and being able to feel awesome. And I really want to say this again: The mouse controls in 0.4.1 are so beautifully intuitive, it takes so little time of learning to feel competent at them

With something closer to the 0.4.1 model, I think the game becomes something that anyone can try out, begin to try their hand at various challenges, and immediately get hooked on the action. It really lends itself well to situations that are unrealistic but which feel fast paced and awesome. I can imagine it being a game with crazy locations you would see in a work of science fiction, like a place where the enemies are testing an experimental fighter, or a canyon system that enemy planes and anti-air defend that leads to some underground base. I feel the controls and physics are good enough to be in a finished game, and I personally would LOVE to play that game, but of course that might not be the game you want to make.

Switching to 0.5.3.0, it feels like a completely different game. The effects feel interesting, the visual and audio feedback is a great addition. Right away, controlling the planes does feel more difficult. Having both a gamepad and a mouse, I tried both controls but as a new player the mouse controls do feel much better. However as another commenter said, I'm having to repeatedly tap the S key at times to be able to pull a bit harder, and that control feels really off, but it feels necessary to do that in many situations. However, with the gamepad I feel like I'm having to fight the controls to be able to do anything. 

I will say, overcoming a more difficult challenge could theoretically be more satisfying, but getting a kill with the gamepad controls which I find very difficult felt more like sigh of relief than any kind of triumph. I was fighting with the controls a lot and at the end all I did was take out a normal enemy plane. It felt like we were on even ground and taking them out felt like "Ok, at least I'm not worse than the AI"

I will be frank, personally the combat in 0.5.3 does feel more boring. Everything happens slower than with the old model. The difficulty increased for the player, but also for the AI planes, and the AI planes tend to burn their speed and end up flying really low and really slow, making them fairly easy targets (and sometimes crash on their own). There's also times where I miss opportunities or get into bad situations and then have to spend a long time coming around for one more go, there's a lot more downtime during fights. 

To compare, with the old version I feel like I'm fighting stronger enemies because the planes are faster and turn better, and they easily pull off maneuvers. In the old version you can react faster and more sharply, but also you need to react faster and more sharply because the enemy planes give you less time to relax.

A bit extra about the controls: in 0.4.1, the mouse controls are intuitive from the start, immediately feel like I have full control. The things to learn are mainly with plane's characteristics like how they behave at different speeds. 

In 0.5.3, the controls are more difficult to use, mouse controls require learning to use the S key, but requires practice as holding the S key down adds too much pitch so I need to tap it instead, which often feels jerky and inaccurate. With the S key thing being as it is, to feel comfortable and have full control I feel like I would need to invest in a joystick. My suggestion would be to allow the mouse controls to pull a little bit harder, because pitching with the keyboard feels very wrong. 

Now, this is a bit of a tangent, but in my head I compare these two flight models to the way Absolute Drift does driving physics, and the way Assetto Corsa does driving physics. Both are games I love. 

Bear with me here, Absolute Drift gives you intuitive controls that you can master fairly quickly even with keyboard-only controls. The entire game is built around drifting, and it gives you an open world to explore and drift through, as well as various standalone tracks/circuits to drive in where you can complete set challenges. The keyboard controls are very intuitive, but the challenge is that the physics and tracks require learning in order to get better at the game. I've put dozens of hours into finishing Absolute Drift and it was a very satisfying experience. Assetto Corsa is a much more hardcore driving game, and it really requires a steering wheel, pedals and gears setup to have the ideal experience. There's a very limited campaign and the game doesn't really give you goals (there's no upgrading or buying cars or anything like that, you have access to everything from the start), and the real content of the game is the physics and the cars. I've spent over a thousand hours in Assetto Corsa, just practicing on my own because of the physics, and getting better in the game really feels like learning things that transfer to the real world. But in Assetto Corsa, a lot of the time I find myself frustrated because the reality is that it's difficult to pull off cool stunts. With the realism of the physics, you really need good equipment because the visuals and sound alone are not enough to communicate what the car is doing. Even though I have a steering wheel setup, I feel limited without VR.

Absolute Drift has unique physics, while Assetto Corsa tries to mimic the real world. So on one hand, Absolute Drift is a very unique game, but what you learn in Assetto Corsa can also transfer to other games and the real world. 

Similarly, I feel that the new flight model can attract an audience that's more serious about planes and flying, and which can open new players to other flight games, but making the physics more realistic and the controls more difficult could make it harder to add satisfying challenges as the realism limits what the planes are capable of, and the difficulty limits what most players are capable of. I think it would be more difficult to give players that feeling of "Wow, I'm a legend, that was awesome!". Planes weren't made in order to be used in games, so I think going for more realism won't necessarily be better for a game. 

On one hand, physics that are more realistic do open the game up for more real life maneuvers and studying of real flight mechanics. There are things in the 0.5.3 flight model that feel really good that weren't possible in 0.4.1 (For example ground effect, or using the landing gear+flaps for extra lift+drag). On the other hand, unrealistic physics can allow for things that are impossible in real life, which could turn off people who are looking for real flight mechanics, but which for others can feel awesome to pull off, because you're doing the impossible. I think finding the right balance of realism and fun is a very difficult task as it depends on what kind of game you want to make and everyone will have different preferences, but you don't have to limit yourself to real physics, you can always take liberties and add whatever you think feels good, since it's your game. 

EDIT: Also in the new flight model I love how it feels like you're actually flying through air, like the slight bounce/wobble when doing sudden turns and the sound effects as you increase the angle. I feel like the new model will grow on me a bit more as I play it more.

I love your work, and look forward to future updates!

Hey Dev is this a map design or a bug or an easter egg? BTW-Yes i did have a rough landing.(HP)

I'm not sure why but after locking onto a target the beeping sound still plays even when i'm in the menu.

Love the more realistic flight model and the tougher ai. I also like the lack of insane compression at higher speeds and the decreased acceleration as the previous versions felt more like rockets than actual aircraft.  Fuel is also a cool addition as I feel it creates a sense of urgency in what you're doing. 

My main problem with this version is the lack of stability. The jaguar and mig both tend to behave strangely while turning (in all axes) and the VJ 101 has strange slips a bit in the yaw axis. This results in maneuvering in general feeling a bit less fluid than the previous iteration. All aircraft also have a slight yaw "bounce" while flying straight and following the mouse and tend to have their noses just a tad low. 

Another thing that I think needs to be changed is maneuverability of the aircraft. I think that they are pulling too weak and are turning too slow.  They also seem to not be capable of high angles of attack in some situations where I think they would likely be able to. 

I like the way that the vtol works but I noticed a few things. Firstly if the engines are put into full vtol on initial takeoff and turned on the plane will naturally pitch up resulting in backwards motion that needs to be compensated by the pilot. I am not sure if this was intentional or not but I feel that it is too severe right now and should be turned down or removed if not intended. 

Also I think damage of the r60s could go a bit up. They basically always two shot right now which I think is a bit too little. Maybe make their damage based on velocity? (I think this is a thing IRL but I'm not sure)

Overall I am really impressed by the work you have been doing and am excited to see where you take it in the future. Thank you for making these games. 

I love the new flight model, but i find you loose some fun in the game, in the previous one you could do a long range combat, then get into a close and thrilling dogfight with the AI, now you  lose most of the dogfight abilitieys, andi find it harder to dogfight in close combat with other planes, your plane loses speed too quickly in turns and you just fall to the ground and die, gainig speed in a dive is too slow, im going full afterburner pitching down and my speed barely increases.

The new flight model is good, but i really loved the sence of action you got in the old one.

points to note:

* AI planes 30% of the time stall while dogfighting with me and crash

* radar lock/detection need to be limited to closer range

* AI planes would win almost every head-on engagemant, make them do some manuvers before engaging 

* gaining speed from diving is too low, it so east to stall while turning

* loosing too much speed in turns

 * if you aim at dead targets on the ground you can hear the locking sound

*mouse wheel goes from 0% throttle instently to 100%

Really love your game!, i think it has a good potential, keep up the good work!

it won't run it says "The code execution cannot proceed because UnityPlayer.dll was not found. Reinstalling the program may fix this problem. Help anyone? please

This flight model is SO MUCH better than the arcady one. It just made no sense how jet fighter turned into a 0.5 ton biplane after slowing down to 200kt. Insane control surfaces lock at high speeds was hella annoying  aswell. The whole dogfight essentially was all about being as slow as and using engine only when enemy tries to run, to get yourself in the super maneuverability state and then getting on the enemy killing him, while the AI had 0 chances of doing absolutely anything to counter this(even when outnumbering a player 5 to 1!!), which combined with complete lack of sense turned the game into a super boring point&click adventure and was not fun AT ALL. With this FM however everything is many times better and dogfights actually have a right to be called dogfights.

Although of course it isn't perfect. Two biggest issues i've noticed through out the testing are:
1) glitchy pitch on the mig21 (often when doing the high alpha turns plane suddenly pushes its nose down HARD. so hard that it often results in negative AoA and then no pitch response whatsoever for couple seconds)
feels like a damping issue, but i'm not sure.
2) rudder feels super weak and unresponsive. 

The conclusion is - undoubtedly stick with this FM. Even taking into account that it has issues and needs to be worked on, it is already completely superior to the arcady one in every way. Don't abandon it just because some people, who have little idea about how airplanes actually work, find it too hard.

Got the chance to try this flight model, and I find it absolutely superb. Piloting the MiG-21 is my favourite part, as high-alpha makes crazy loopings impossible without significant thrust, and makes landings feel realistic with wind. It's like flying a real airplane with a 1990s filter!

Though I'm not a hardcore flight sim player, I've played the old WWII Jane's, MS FS 2000, and Wings over Israel, some Novalogic sims, and H.A.W.X. (all with the keyboard in the past -- wow). Overall, your flight model compares favourably to all the above. I'd even say I like it best compared to my favourite, Wings over Israel, because in that one, the high alpha stalled dramatically. Congratulations on such a good job.

I know this is a dev nightmare, but maybe you can consider including a code switch between easy/unrealistic flight mode (no wind, less stall, etc.) and the complete model, if it turns out to be a problem for people to play?

Part of the fun of playing the sim with a more accurate model is the extra challenge. Right now it plays well with a joystick, and gives a feeling of satisfaction that you've turned and landed successfully. The enemy jets are quite close, so if you just gun the afterburner you're fighting in about a minute, but of course, it's no arcade.

I think you prefer the challenges of the realistic flight model. In the end, your interests are what keep this project alive, so it should please you so you remain motivated.

On a side note, the lack of a HUD makes it difficult to read the values. I almost want to code one for you.

It might just be me, but I must admit that I very much preferred the older flight model. It may be more arcadey, and it may be the AC fan in me speaking, but it just felt right! I would suggest that you use that one instead, because I find it more enjoyable.

My nitpicks aside, I absolutely love your work so far! The game is tons of fun even in this state, and it is clear that you've been putting a lot of love into it. Keep up the good work, buddy!

The V107 is an insane dogfighter XD

You nailed that a-10 cuba look!

And agree that mouse control is no-no now!