I prefer the former flight model. The new one kind of ruins what I realy like about the original, which is that it's simple. Planes were easy to control, you could do some cool maneuvers, and it was challenging. However, now flight is much harder, and there is a lot of extra things to worry about. I'll still play the game in whatever version, I just would prefer the old flight model. Good job making it!
Tiny Combat Arena - Flight Model Demo
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Love the new flight model, just a bug i noticed, when the wind speed is really low (4kph), the Mig 21 (didn't test the other planes) gets pushed sideways while on the ground. Also a sensitivity slider in a controls menu for pitch yaw and roll would be good. Other than that, great so far.
I dont like this full realistic fly controls it makes the game very slow and strange to play
i like the controls in the last update you just need to add more planes ,missions , maps , radar , cockpit and harder bot to fight againts
keep the hard work and dont change the flight model please :)
i think the flight model is a great addition to the game, but i can also see why you wouldnt like it. Perhaps the creator could add a arcade and realistic mode which correspond to both flight models?(and also thats alot of stuff hes just one guy chill on him bruh)
i have been refurbishing my house so that is all i had time to say, anyway
i have been playing dcs lately and i am into full realism and the flight model is great for that, (in my opinion) but also in dcs i have been playing around with skins and paint jobs for the aircraft with mip maps. i know that the mip maps arn't directly in the game files as you have to extract them and label the file names but i have not found a way of editing anything as far as i have looked into the games actual files. now, however, im not saying that the looks of the aircraft are bad or not accurate to the time period or what it was based off of but i feel like having that kind of ability and freedom is quite nice to have.
i also realise that dcs is quite a different game as it is mainly played in the cockpit and not with an exterior view. but if we compare the exterior view games e.g. war thunder ext. thay have the ability of changing the degree of flaps as when i play the version of the game that lets you use landing gear at more than 300kt/s i deploy it in dogfights to make me more maneuverable (or so i would think). also by raising the landing gear it does not give you the choice of keeping the flaps down and incresing lift as a real plane would because the landing gear creates drag, (more than the flaps) so if you have to keep the landing gear down for the flaps it become quite inconvenient when coming in for a slow aproach. also i have noticed that in the new version with the updated flight model the engines dont need to spool up, which if your trying to make the game more realistic by adding an updated flight would be nice to have to add to the more realistic feel
i love the game though and it looks like a lot of effort has been put into it but these are my oppinions and they might not be everyones cup of tea.
hello there, i have now been playing this game for about 3 weeks now and have seen a few changes which are great and i love the feel of the mig 21 with the new realistic controls but i feel that it has lost a bit of its arcade-ish feel, i know the real mig 21 couldn't do a full cobra but it was fun to do so and being completely standstill in the vertical position, (ya know, air show stuff) i really like the vj 101 by the way and its flight model is realy fun and realistic in my opinion.
as this game has evolved and has introduced fuel levels i dont know how to eddit the fuel level (ir amount of fuel) when taking off to have a choice of long range or maneuverabilityif that makes sense.
really enjoying the game though, am proud and pleased
I have mixed feelings about the new flight model, it's fun to try to fly with more realistic but difficult controls, but at the same time I can't do the kind of things that I did in 0.4.1
(Something I want to mention to begin with, I'm pretty new to flight games and flight mechanics, I've played a bit of War Thunder and that's basically it. I also don't have a joystick)
I feel like there can be a good game if you go either way, and that both flight models have potential.
With the older, more arcade flight model because the mouse controls are so easy and intuitive, and the planes react so well, you could add some really crazy challenges that would still be doable even to new players, because you can focus on the challenge right away and you don't have to fight the controls. You can never have played any flight game before, launch the game, and immediately start doing maneuvers, and with only a little bit of practice you can have cinematic battles and feel like a legend. This is what really keeps me playing the 0.4.1 version, the cinematic battles and being able to feel awesome. And I really want to say this again: The mouse controls in 0.4.1 are so beautifully intuitive, it takes so little time of learning to feel competent at them
With something closer to the 0.4.1 model, I think the game becomes something that anyone can try out, begin to try their hand at various challenges, and immediately get hooked on the action. It really lends itself well to situations that are unrealistic but which feel fast paced and awesome. I can imagine it being a game with crazy locations you would see in a work of science fiction, like a place where the enemies are testing an experimental fighter, or a canyon system that enemy planes and anti-air defend that leads to some underground base. I feel the controls and physics are good enough to be in a finished game, and I personally would LOVE to play that game, but of course that might not be the game you want to make.
Switching to 0.5.3.0, it feels like a completely different game. The effects feel interesting, the visual and audio feedback is a great addition. Right away, controlling the planes does feel more difficult. Having both a gamepad and a mouse, I tried both controls but as a new player the mouse controls do feel much better. However as another commenter said, I'm having to repeatedly tap the S key at times to be able to pull a bit harder, and that control feels really off, but it feels necessary to do that in many situations. However, with the gamepad I feel like I'm having to fight the controls to be able to do anything.
I will say, overcoming a more difficult challenge could theoretically be more satisfying, but getting a kill with the gamepad controls which I find very difficult felt more like sigh of relief than any kind of triumph. I was fighting with the controls a lot and at the end all I did was take out a normal enemy plane. It felt like we were on even ground and taking them out felt like "Ok, at least I'm not worse than the AI"
I will be frank, personally the combat in 0.5.3 does feel more boring. Everything happens slower than with the old model. The difficulty increased for the player, but also for the AI planes, and the AI planes tend to burn their speed and end up flying really low and really slow, making them fairly easy targets (and sometimes crash on their own). There's also times where I miss opportunities or get into bad situations and then have to spend a long time coming around for one more go, there's a lot more downtime during fights.
To compare, with the old version I feel like I'm fighting stronger enemies because the planes are faster and turn better, and they easily pull off maneuvers. In the old version you can react faster and more sharply, but also you need to react faster and more sharply because the enemy planes give you less time to relax.
A bit extra about the controls: in 0.4.1, the mouse controls are intuitive from the start, immediately feel like I have full control. The things to learn are mainly with plane's characteristics like how they behave at different speeds.
In 0.5.3, the controls are more difficult to use, mouse controls require learning to use the S key, but requires practice as holding the S key down adds too much pitch so I need to tap it instead, which often feels jerky and inaccurate. With the S key thing being as it is, to feel comfortable and have full control I feel like I would need to invest in a joystick. My suggestion would be to allow the mouse controls to pull a little bit harder, because pitching with the keyboard feels very wrong.
Now, this is a bit of a tangent, but in my head I compare these two flight models to the way Absolute Drift does driving physics, and the way Assetto Corsa does driving physics. Both are games I love.
Bear with me here, Absolute Drift gives you intuitive controls that you can master fairly quickly even with keyboard-only controls. The entire game is built around drifting, and it gives you an open world to explore and drift through, as well as various standalone tracks/circuits to drive in where you can complete set challenges. The keyboard controls are very intuitive, but the challenge is that the physics and tracks require learning in order to get better at the game. I've put dozens of hours into finishing Absolute Drift and it was a very satisfying experience. Assetto Corsa is a much more hardcore driving game, and it really requires a steering wheel, pedals and gears setup to have the ideal experience. There's a very limited campaign and the game doesn't really give you goals (there's no upgrading or buying cars or anything like that, you have access to everything from the start), and the real content of the game is the physics and the cars. I've spent over a thousand hours in Assetto Corsa, just practicing on my own because of the physics, and getting better in the game really feels like learning things that transfer to the real world. But in Assetto Corsa, a lot of the time I find myself frustrated because the reality is that it's difficult to pull off cool stunts. With the realism of the physics, you really need good equipment because the visuals and sound alone are not enough to communicate what the car is doing. Even though I have a steering wheel setup, I feel limited without VR.
Absolute Drift has unique physics, while Assetto Corsa tries to mimic the real world. So on one hand, Absolute Drift is a very unique game, but what you learn in Assetto Corsa can also transfer to other games and the real world.
Similarly, I feel that the new flight model can attract an audience that's more serious about planes and flying, and which can open new players to other flight games, but making the physics more realistic and the controls more difficult could make it harder to add satisfying challenges as the realism limits what the planes are capable of, and the difficulty limits what most players are capable of. I think it would be more difficult to give players that feeling of "Wow, I'm a legend, that was awesome!". Planes weren't made in order to be used in games, so I think going for more realism won't necessarily be better for a game.
On one hand, physics that are more realistic do open the game up for more real life maneuvers and studying of real flight mechanics. There are things in the 0.5.3 flight model that feel really good that weren't possible in 0.4.1 (For example ground effect, or using the landing gear+flaps for extra lift+drag). On the other hand, unrealistic physics can allow for things that are impossible in real life, which could turn off people who are looking for real flight mechanics, but which for others can feel awesome to pull off, because you're doing the impossible. I think finding the right balance of realism and fun is a very difficult task as it depends on what kind of game you want to make and everyone will have different preferences, but you don't have to limit yourself to real physics, you can always take liberties and add whatever you think feels good, since it's your game.
EDIT: Also in the new flight model I love how it feels like you're actually flying through air, like the slight bounce/wobble when doing sudden turns and the sound effects as you increase the angle. I feel like the new model will grow on me a bit more as I play it more.
I love your work, and look forward to future updates!
This is excellent and detailed feedback. This is exactly what I like to see. Thank you very much!
You make a lot of very good points. I think all I can really add is that the flight model demo is (somewhat intentionally) made up of extremes. The MiG-21 is not supposed to be easy to fly, and the Jaguar is very underpowered which puts a big focus on what the aerodynamics mean for it. If the F-20 ever made it into the new flight model, it would probably fly somewhat like the older style planes simply because it has so much thrust and lift. I wonder if people would have said, "Just make all the planes like the F-20!"
As I continue working on the game, I'm coming to the conclusion that I probably want to shoot for some middle ground between the two. As of right now, the flight model is currently an expanded version of what was in this demo, but with more fidelity in the control systems. E.g. you have manual control of flaps and the nozzle because they are actual control surfaces versus magic abstracted things as in the demo. I think these are good things to have and I'll definitely be keeping them. However I'll probably tune the flight model such that they are easier to fly, but still driven by this physics system.
There is also a possibility (no promises!), that a toggleable "simplified flight model" could be in the game, but that remains to be seen pending work I plan on doing this month.
Another thing I've come to notice, between comments here and the YouTube videos that get posted, is that I (foolishly, honestly) under-estimated how much people would fly with the mouse. From the very beginning, I begrudgingly included the mouse flight only as a concession for people without joysticks. I never liked it because by its very nature it will mask many of the interesting properties that you get from flying manually such as a lack of stability, wind, turbulence, and many such things. It also lacks nuance and is prone to "throwing the joystick around" as if it was an arcade game. As I've watched people play and report their findings, it seems like the vast majority of people don't even consider playing with anything else. So many people praise the old flight model, despite it's 100% broken and placeholder status, as "realistic" and good. It's hard not to wonder why I should even bother.
Between all of that, I absolutely 100% need to re-implement mouse controls before the next release. They're currently broken to the point where I've flat out removed them completely in favor of a simple virtual joystick because of the cockpit and new camera system. Honestly, I wasn't planning on re-adding them back any time soon, but with what I've seen recently it seems like suicide not to.
Hey Dev is this a map design or a bug or an easter egg? BTW-Yes i did have a rough landing.(HP)
I'm not sure why but after locking onto a target the beeping sound still plays even when i'm in the menu.
I love the new changes though most of the issues i've seen are already posted here.. which are 'losing too much speed when turning', 'Airspeed is slow to gain when full afterburner and diving'... and its also hard to play with the keyboard especially when turning, so if its doable it will be nice to bring the mouse control in TCA 0.4.1, cause with the mouse control here in Flight Model its really hard to turn unless i use the key "S", and the need of pressing S in the Mouse Control especially with the Mig-21, its better to name it Keyboard and Mouse Control, cause the movement of the aircraft relies on both the mouse and keyboard... one thing when in Keyboard Controls, is there no way to look around the aircraft? or im missing something here? i really wish i can look around but are we unable to do it? is there a key bind?
PS: i kinda like how the gameplay of Mig-21 is designed... its challenging, it takes time to master the controls, which is really nice. compare to 0.4.1 which is the Mig-21 is really easy to master
Love the more realistic flight model and the tougher ai. I also like the lack of insane compression at higher speeds and the decreased acceleration as the previous versions felt more like rockets than actual aircraft. Fuel is also a cool addition as I feel it creates a sense of urgency in what you're doing.
My main problem with this version is the lack of stability. The jaguar and mig both tend to behave strangely while turning (in all axes) and the VJ 101 has strange slips a bit in the yaw axis. This results in maneuvering in general feeling a bit less fluid than the previous iteration. All aircraft also have a slight yaw "bounce" while flying straight and following the mouse and tend to have their noses just a tad low.
Another thing that I think needs to be changed is maneuverability of the aircraft. I think that they are pulling too weak and are turning too slow. They also seem to not be capable of high angles of attack in some situations where I think they would likely be able to.
I like the way that the vtol works but I noticed a few things. Firstly if the engines are put into full vtol on initial takeoff and turned on the plane will naturally pitch up resulting in backwards motion that needs to be compensated by the pilot. I am not sure if this was intentional or not but I feel that it is too severe right now and should be turned down or removed if not intended.
Also I think damage of the r60s could go a bit up. They basically always two shot right now which I think is a bit too little. Maybe make their damage based on velocity? (I think this is a thing IRL but I'm not sure)
Overall I am really impressed by the work you have been doing and am excited to see where you take it in the future. Thank you for making these games.
Honestly a lot of what you're describing is realistic and more a limitation of the controls. Flying with a joystick, most of this is a non-issue as you have more direct control and choice over what the plane is doing. Yaw instability is intended, but noted. I may specifically address this later on.
None of the planes in this demo should be capable of pulling high AOA, especially the MiG-21 and VJ-101. They stall their wings very dramatically with minimal AOA and at low speeds you have the pitch authority to do it quite easily. The best way to fly the interceptors (MiG-21 especially) is to keep them fast. Dropping speed <400 knots is asking for trouble, and <300 you are basically a sitting duck. That is not the regime those planes are optimized for. At high speeds though, they are stable, much more responsive, and generally turn better. The handling characteristics you're describing are typical of 2nd and 3rd generation fighters, as they tended to be built around high speed intercept rather than dogfighting.
The mouse controls will try their best to keep this under control and limit input. They generally do a good job (you should have seen what it was like before), but it's a very hard thing to automate. There is a whole field of engineering around solving problems like this. It's unfortunate the F-20 never got its flight model updated because I think the F-20 would be more in line with what people think fighter jets should behave like. It's a much more modern jet with a very powerful engine (the Jaguar in particular is very under-powered by comparison), and wings designed for high angles of attack. It would have been a very forgiving airframe, and very snappy.
I've been paying close attention to the feedback both demos have gotten. Posts like yours that are well reasoned and critical are important. I like to make sure to recognize them and let their writers know that it's appreciated, as they are the most helpful to the game's development.
Going forwards, I think many people will find the Harrier a comfortable compromise between the two flight models. While it uses a slightly more complex version of the flight model from this demo, its design necessitates a very high thrust to weight ratio and a high lift wing. While it's not the most nimble thing in the world, it is a very easy and forgiving plane to fly, with ample thrust to get you out of sticky situations. However if you push it too far, and it takes some effort, its supercritical wing will stall sharply and often asymmetrically. I'm looking forward to hearing yours and others feedback on the Harrier when the next demo comes around!
Thanks for the thorough response. I still think that the mig should be able to pull just a tad a bit harder than current than it currently is mainly in the instantaneous department. They do pull hard but it is for a bit shorter than I feel it should be and it doesn't really result in the insane speed loss that it should.
I am really excited to see what the harrier is like and excited in general to see the work you continue doing as its amazing to watch.
It's pretty cool, but I recommend you to make two modes:
One with the way of playing like in the other version (0.4.1) arcade
Another with this playing mode (0.5.3.0) simulator
In my opinion this version is just a matter of getting used to fly it.
I love the new flight model, but i find you loose some fun in the game, in the previous one you could do a long range combat, then get into a close and thrilling dogfight with the AI, now you lose most of the dogfight abilitieys, andi find it harder to dogfight in close combat with other planes, your plane loses speed too quickly in turns and you just fall to the ground and die, gainig speed in a dive is too slow, im going full afterburner pitching down and my speed barely increases.
The new flight model is good, but i really loved the sence of action you got in the old one.
points to note:
* AI planes 30% of the time stall while dogfighting with me and crash
* radar lock/detection need to be limited to closer range
* AI planes would win almost every head-on engagemant, make them do some manuvers before engaging
* gaining speed from diving is too low, it so east to stall while turning
* loosing too much speed in turns
* if you aim at dead targets on the ground you can hear the locking sound
*mouse wheel goes from 0% throttle instently to 100%
Really love your game!, i think it has a good potential, keep up the good work!
Both the MiG and VJ hate turning in the way that they would. They're designed as fast interceptors with tiny wings. The Jaguar is a much more forgiving plane. This is good feedback though, thank you.
For the love of god mate fix this crash glitch
Everytime i try to press on sortie button it crashes i cannot play this game hope this thing gets fixed im so exited for this game
it won't run it says "The code execution cannot proceed because UnityPlayer.dll was not found. Reinstalling the program may fix this problem. Help anyone? please
This flight model is SO MUCH better than the arcady one. It just made no sense how jet fighter turned into a 0.5 ton biplane after slowing down to 200kt. Insane control surfaces lock at high speeds was hella annoying aswell. The whole dogfight essentially was all about being as slow as and using engine only when enemy tries to run, to get yourself in the super maneuverability state and then getting on the enemy killing him, while the AI had 0 chances of doing absolutely anything to counter this(even when outnumbering a player 5 to 1!!), which combined with complete lack of sense turned the game into a super boring point&click adventure and was not fun AT ALL. With this FM however everything is many times better and dogfights actually have a right to be called dogfights.
Although of course it isn't perfect. Two biggest issues i've noticed through out the testing are:
1) glitchy pitch on the mig21 (often when doing the high alpha turns plane suddenly pushes its nose down HARD. so hard that it often results in negative AoA and then no pitch response whatsoever for couple seconds)
feels like a damping issue, but i'm not sure.
2) rudder feels super weak and unresponsive.
The conclusion is - undoubtedly stick with this FM. Even taking into account that it has issues and needs to be worked on, it is already completely superior to the arcady one in every way. Don't abandon it just because some people, who have little idea about how airplanes actually work, find it too hard.
I already discover
how I install this game ???
I discovered your game recently with the 4.1 build and then found out about this one. As some people pointed it out it is less "fun" but honestly still great.
I think the biggest issue is the fact that the AI is struggeling a lot, and thus it feels weird to overshoot your target while stalling at the same time lol. (The secret is to get your gears and flaps out for better low speed perf lol (maybe you should bind the flaps alone))
there are a few issues like the fact that you are not refueled when you land and rearm but thats not a big deal.
long rambling and calculations comming :
I wanted to point an other thing (hope it doesnt sound rude) :
I dont have experience flying the mig21 in dcs for example so i dont know how accurate the data is but it felt quite heavy and slow...
I tried to figure out why :
And I dicovered something (i will try to explain) :
I was wondering if the scale and speed where on point :
I took some screen shots of the mig on the runway and with some quick mesures i found out that the runway is about 70 to 72 migs long.
The mig being 14.4m long the runway is about a 1km long (between 1008 and 1033m) nothing weird here...
But then i tried to time how long it took to cross the runway at a given speed and mesure it's lengt in an other way :
So at about mach1 (mostly above but the point is the same) it took between 4.15 and 4.2 seconds to cross it (this is the least accurate part but i found quite consistant times). mach 1 = 340 m/s so it should mean that the runway is about 1428 m long.
conclusion : there is a contradication.
Maybe its just the mig model and i am digging too deep inot this lol...
But maybe it will help you in some way :)
As some other people says the more realistic flight model dont need to be abandoned and neither the arcade one. maybe you ca keep both (saying that, it is probably doubling your work...) and make it an "option", but the AI in this model is probably the priority to make it more enjoyable.
hope my english is not too bad...
thank you for your game and good luck !
Just tested it this evening.
As i only know Tiny combat arena since yesterday i might be wrong but I feel like with this flight model it's more about energy management. I like it.
The way planes behave at slow speed with the older fm is too far from reality for me.
So i would say that i prefer this new fm.
In my opinion adding a cockpit view with only the hud would help to test the fm.
By the way i really love the desert map, just one thing, flying over the white areas is difficult, i can appreciate how close to the ground i am.
And i miss a compass to know where i am.
Well that's all for now,
Thanks for sharing your work, i really like this game!
Got the chance to try this flight model, and I find it absolutely superb. Piloting the MiG-21 is my favourite part, as high-alpha makes crazy loopings impossible without significant thrust, and makes landings feel realistic with wind. It's like flying a real airplane with a 1990s filter!
Though I'm not a hardcore flight sim player, I've played the old WWII Jane's, MS FS 2000, and Wings over Israel, some Novalogic sims, and H.A.W.X. (all with the keyboard in the past -- wow). Overall, your flight model compares favourably to all the above. I'd even say I like it best compared to my favourite, Wings over Israel, because in that one, the high alpha stalled dramatically. Congratulations on such a good job.
I know this is a dev nightmare, but maybe you can consider including a code switch between easy/unrealistic flight mode (no wind, less stall, etc.) and the complete model, if it turns out to be a problem for people to play?
Part of the fun of playing the sim with a more accurate model is the extra challenge. Right now it plays well with a joystick, and gives a feeling of satisfaction that you've turned and landed successfully. The enemy jets are quite close, so if you just gun the afterburner you're fighting in about a minute, but of course, it's no arcade.
I think you prefer the challenges of the realistic flight model. In the end, your interests are what keep this project alive, so it should please you so you remain motivated.
On a side note, the lack of a HUD makes it difficult to read the values. I almost want to code one for you.
It might just be me, but I must admit that I very much preferred the older flight model. It may be more arcadey, and it may be the AC fan in me speaking, but it just felt right! I would suggest that you use that one instead, because I find it more enjoyable.
My nitpicks aside, I absolutely love your work so far! The game is tons of fun even in this state, and it is clear that you've been putting a lot of love into it. Keep up the good work, buddy!
This is very important feedback, thank you! I knew going in that not everybody would like it and honestly I've been shocked more people haven't voiced their discontent. What you're talking about is definitely a fear of mine, that as cool as the flight model stuff is on a technical level, what's most important is that it makes the game better.
It can happen sometimes, don't let it get to you. I'm glad to be at least somewhat helpful.
I do not know much about the art of coding, I will admit. I also cannot imagine how much effort it must take to make something like this. However, you've shown that you've got loads of dedication and talent, which are fundamental when making a good game, and what I've seen so far certainly seems to be on the right track.
Also, the plane selection shows that you've got absolutely patrician taste in aircraft :^)
The V107 is an insane dogfighter XD
It maybe shouldn't be, but I didn't put much time into the flight model beyond the VTOL part of it. Physics-wise it has the same wings as the MiG-21, but the tail is further back so there's more leverage and it gets a little extra lift for free from the engine pods.
You nailed that a-10 cuba look!
And agree that mouse control is no-no now!
Yeah the mouse control is in a dire state right now. I'll need to figure something out for it, because it's also the reason the AI are so bad at flying right now.
This has since changed the mouse control uses a very different set of flight control laws now, making it far more stable.